Apr 9, 2018
Interview - Jay Kinder
In today’s episode we have Jay Kinder, who has been in real estate for 20 years and started his own independent brokerage company prior to transitioning to eXp Realty. We hear about Jay’s previous experience, why he chose eXp Realty, how eXp differs from other companies and how you can learn more about opportunities with eXp.
Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed. This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.
In this episode
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be sent to you. YouTube videos are also available online.
Contact Jay Kinder, email at Jay@Jaykinder.com
Contact Gene Frederick, text 703-338-1515
“It just seems more real so we just thought all in all it is a better platform. It just made sense to us to be at eXp.”
“I think people think, you know, it's all about how much you're putting into it. It's incredible how quickly it grows underneath you with people that you're not talking to every single day.”
“Essentially, if you look at a cloud-based brokerage like eXp Realty your single cap gives you access nationwide because it's a single brokerage, not each office is independently owned and operated like in a franchise system.”
KEVIN: Welcome to the show. Jay how are you.
JAY: I'm doing great. Kevin how are you doing buddy.
KEVIN: Fantastic looking for this conversation. I think a lot of people are when they listen to this. Before we get into sort of the meat of the topic on the eXp for agents that may not know your background why don't you give a quick bio and background before we jump into the details.
JAY: Yes sure. I've been doing this 20 years now so I got into a real estate a pretty young age. My dad owned a, bought actually in 1997 a Coldwell banker franchise from being an independent. And then I got into a real estate late that year. And so about 20 years now that I've been selling real estate I was very fortunate to invest in myself go to every conference anybody who sold anything for real estate agents. They have my credit card. That's for sure. I was fortunate to be pretty successful early on. My first you know four five years were pretty good. I ended up I think number two in the world for Coldwell banker for several years. Selling I think at the peak of my career five hundred and something homes kind of went on to start a coaching and consulting company with my business partner Mike Reese who is also a real estate agent. I kind of got him into real estate and we just found that we really enjoyed helping real estate agents grow their business. That was something we were very passionate about. We started our own company together as well probably in 2014. I think officially we restarted up and brand new brokerage together. We both had our company separate but we put one together and started growing that in about 2015 16 17 and then obviously last year we joined the eXp.
KEVIN: So for listeners I want to give some context to this Jay and I think first met we were trying to figure it out before we started recording somewhere around 2004. We were both in Austin, Texas. I was living in Austin at the time. Jay was down from Lawton, Oklahoma and Chad Goldwasser had put together, I can't remember what Keller Williams event it was but there was an event and there were about 15 or 20 of us at dinner and Jay happened to be sitting across from here next to me because I remember you made this comment and I think it's very very apropos for the conversation today which is you've been successful like you just talked about Coldwell banker. You made the comment. You said I'm happy to come learn. I get invited every time there's an event. It may have a mega camp or something like that by Gary Keller. You never changed and I want for listeners to say that again. I mean from 2004 when Jay and I first met he had already been courted by Keller Williams and Gary Keller personally for years and now it's 2017 all of a sudden after what you just described and the coaching and consulting business you and Michael launched a brokerage business. You made a hard turn and double down so to speak on the eXp realty. Let's talk about why. What was the genesis for that decision.
JAY: The genesis for that decision was you know as an independent you know of course if you would asked me if I was interested in joining any brokerage I would have been adamantly opposed to it. I consider myself lucky that I was even open minded enough to consider it as an option because I wasn't certainly looking to join any other brokerage once we went independent and 2011 and then we started our own brokerage that was independent. There were just you know that was a direction that we were going and we had a brand that we were building and we wanted to expand that brand across the country and we weren't looking to join a brokerage that wasn't a problem that we were trying to solve what problem we were trying to solve. And I think what really made us have to really consider eXp was the recruiting and retention challenge that you have as an independent brokerage or as a large mega agent team however you want to look at us was something that we just consistently fought you know year in and year out. And when we look at the eXp model it really was just a better platform for us to kind of expand our real estate business across the country as we were intending to do. It just made a lot more sense to do it at the eXp. There was a better value proposition that we could align to what we were already offering in terms of value. And there was just a better business model that was already in place with publicly traded company, having shares and ownership in equity which we wanted to incorporate into our model that we really didn't have a good way to do that. And I think most agents don't really buy in for the long term of an independent because there's never really you know what's the true value of that independent. You know if you were to even implement some type of equity you know opportunity or whatever there's limited value to that because it's not real. And I think eXp became very obvious which the stock trades for you can go look that up and sell it you know. Obviously after you've invested you can go out and sell that stock. So it just seems more real so we just thought all in all better platform it just made sense to us to be at eXp.
KEVIN: You know it's interesting. I ran across the same comment from an independent broker in the Portland area that converted his 30 plus agents in the eXp and I had originally approached him to look for potential acquisitions and or people that might be interested in eXp. Not initially even on his behalf. In other words he made the comment to me send me the information. Let me understand what you guys are all about and what was interesting I sent to him on a Friday. Even before Monday arrived I had some text and call saying hey I'm going to get another call with you. And I got on the call and his comment was the same thing you said which is I don't know how I remain viable as an independent when there is this alternative value proposition. I think that is the big wave that's coming. I know you're seeing it not only with mega mega agents and teams but the independent brokers people that have built solid businesses and we already have numerous examples. I've got a number of them that I've already recorded and will be recording of independents coming into the eXp and everybody says the same thing. And something like to this effect not only retention but the guy in Portland said when I started doing my due diligence I started calling people and when I got to some big franchise recruits that I thought I could get into my firm within the next 12 to 18 months. These are the people that you typically have to court for a while. Every one of them either was already in play for eXp or told them if I move anywhere I'm moving to eXp and that's happening every market across the country. It's an interesting prospect. So Jay if you look at this from the standpoint of equity and you know most agents and I want to kind of let you expand on that. Most agents have either been sold a bill of goods of especially recently that you want to be part of a private company not a public company. I will make the comment I did nine startups out of Silicon Valley including two that went public. That is the most asinine comment by that leader that I've ever heard. I mean unless you are passing out equity like a law firm does two partners where they divvy up the pool of income and profit at the end of the year you're being sold a bill of goods. There's no easier way to say it. If you're drinking the coolaid so strong that you're waving the flag now. Yeah yeah. Private private private. I am so sorry. Go run around Sandhill Road and talk to the venture capitalists and the entrepreneurs that tried to do it privately. Competing with companies and that's not to mention in the real estate space all of the venture funded entities. If you're the lone private entity who is run by the largest shareholder that's trying to tell you that private is good, just go do some due diligence. Go talk to somebody that works for a law firm that's highly profitable that is private and ask them how they participate in that profit and then go back and see if you have an opportunity do that because the last time I checked there is no profit other than profit share being handed out in that large franchise system. I come from it. It's a great company. But Jay, don't you think that once agents do their due diligence and some of them are doing it in a week some are taking 6 months but when they look at this and they start thinking about building wealth and they start thinking about retirement, other streams of income there really isn't a second choice in this. Is there?
JAY: There's not a second choice and it's fascinating to me. If you go back and live 30 years ago it was "Keller who" you know when they were first taken off as an example the influences really kind of drive the growth of the company. And I got two messages today literally since right before and probably in the last hour or two that are agents that you know they basically watch the webinar, a they are interested in. One guy said he's 95 % there and the other guy actually said something very similar to that in his comments. And I think when people you know what's really you know we're just at the you know the tipping point you know getting close to 10,000 agents and you know I've always heard that is the tipping point but I've never felt anything like a tipping point like this. I mean it is incredibly interesting how many influences, mega agents, independents see the value proposition they see that's real and I think the other agents you know that are leaders maybe in their marketplaces but they're doing a good business and they're happy where they're at. You know that's going to be the next big wave in the next 12 to 18 months of agents that just this is obviously there's a lot of smart people that moved over here. I get it. I'm moving over here. I mean I can only expect that that would be the case.
KEVIN: Gene Frederick and I have coined the term super influencers. We're going through a phase now and you certainly qualify in this category Jay where you get people that have both on their network and also on their social media following Super influence. They're disrupters, when they move especially in the context of what I said about you were you being courted for more than 10, 15 years and then you made a move and those people in the industry that didn't realize that was even a possibility. It was highly disruptive in the market. I know that you've had some huge success. You've had a bunch of people come over afterwards and I think that last time I saw your numbers and I'll just ask you for an update it's been about 100 days hasn't it? When we recorded this and how many people are in your revenue share group?
JAY: We partnered obviously me and Michael and Stacey who brought me on board and I think you know all together we are now at just under 300 in total in our revenue share group. And I believe like my personal line it's something like 25 or something like that 27 I think actually now. So yeah. I mean it grew super fast. I think people think you know it's all about how much you're putting into it. It's incredible how quickly it grows underneath you without you know.. with people that you're not talking to every single day. I've a lot of conversations about eXp every single day. I'm happy to have the most fun I've ever had in my life. Having those conversations all day. The bottom line is people tell people who to tell people who tell people and your revenue share grows without much effort beneath you is what I experienced thus far.
KEVIN: It's the viral nature of real estate. Now people have people in the real estate business that they are personal friends with or they are in their network. It could even be in their city or their part of their referral network much like what happened to you when a brokerage change occurs. They're like well why did you go to eXp or what's up with eXp. And like you were discussing you'll have them watch a quick intro to eXp or a webinar. It's a little crazy silly. How much traction there is. Because as a former team leader for Keller Williams I can tell you I haven't tried to recruit Jake Kinder but trying to recruit a Kapper or a mega agent was a six months to a six year arduous process. In other words it was a huge win. If somebody like Gene Frederick or I got a mega mega agent and you just look at the last seven days at eXp you know and there's like 500 million dollars worth of production and teams coming in in a week. And for context and the reason I bring that up is it's easy for people to get confused especially because there's a lot of noise and information in the market that it's not very very viral. I know of a franchise office I was told about on the East Coast where not only the team left but all 1 through 5 left in one week. And this is happening for context for listeners to this without Nine hundred team leaders, without managing brokers going out and doing recruiting on a basis. Now you've got people like Gene Frederick, Jay, myself and a whole bunch of other people including agents they're just talking to as Jay described agents in their network. You know maybe somebody did a cobroker transaction with and then they decide to join. But it's very viral at this point isn't that sort of the feeling that you were describing earlier as never felt like it.
JAY: That's exactly what it is. It's a completely viral. I found it interesting. There's kind of a unique balance of people who still have never heard of eXp which is a huge opportunity because most people have never been even exposed to what it is and then it seems like there's another subset of the market that were exposed to it didn't really probably weren't properly exposed to it or maybe they weren't exposed to it in a way that they actually listen closely to what it was or looks closely at what it is. There's the people that had been watching closely bought this stock and are just waiting here just waiting for the right person to come on board it so that they know that it's a good decision. Maybe they're fearful or maybe it's just timing. You know those are the kind of the three different tiers that I tend to run into. It's just incredible opportunity. I think still with age I still really don't know anything about eXp or haven't even really heard much about it in some markets.
KEVIN: And I would echo that I just had a conversation with about a 10 or 12 million dollar producer in San Diego and I happened to run across her and asked her if she had ever heard of the eXp and we were on a phone call much like the calls that you do Jay. She said it's the wildest thing I see it all over social media. I see it. You know when somebody post something about changing brokers in a Facebook group about real estate and there's 300 comments she said but I've never seen anybody talk to me about what it really means. And that's the opportunity. And you know I want to put a footnote in here and I know you'll probably echo the comment which is commenting for those of you that are already with a eXp and we'll have a lot of people listening to these interviews just for tips and thoughts and be able to frankly share it with other agents that are not here yet. The time to jump in and a 300 comment thread on Facebook is not the right way to get somebody's attention. It's about the one on one conversations. It's about building a relationship with somebody. It's about being purposeful about value and it's not a perfect fit at the eXp realty for everybody I'm sure you've had plenty of conversations like I have. Were the parties mutually agree that OK well it's either not fit now or just you know what. Thank you very much. Or not. I can tell you that I don't jump in those comment streams but I can tell you that invariably when I have a conversation with somebody about eXp that is active in one of those groups, they receive them fairly negatively. In other words I would encourage people if you're listening to this and you're with the eXp to stop the cheerleading in the comments and you know touting revenue share in these 300 comment threads and these Facebook groups. Get into a one on one relationship with people including people who are active in those groups and have a phone conversation. Let them watch the webinar and let them learn the true facts because all it comes across as is overly aggressive. People didn't like this when it happened at Keller Williams. Like I said before, I was a team leader for a long time I ran several market centers Gene Frederic was a team leader, the number one team leader in the country and we never did that. In other words there's plenty of agents that are all excited and you just talked about having somebody just this weekend. Reach out to you. I had two people this weekend as well. And it wasn't because I posted a comment on Facebook right. I don't never see you do it either Jay.
JAY: All we've done actually.. we haven't done anything and of course we're you know by the nature of our business as we market the real estate agents all across the country and have been doing that since 2006 so I haven't sent an email talking about eXp or our move. I haven't done anything on Facebook other than doing Facebook Live to announce it and then using you know Facebook Live to interview other people have made the move as well. That's pretty much all we've done so far. And you know that's a good way to get the message out if somebody wants to tune in it can and will have to. But the thing you know that way you're not you know in their face you know trying to force it. I think you want to you know again it's age and attraction agents that are interested in it keep hearing about it are going to be more likely to snoop around a little bit more maybe ask a question are private messages or something like that. But you know just go out there and jumping into a forum using making comments you know about eXp definitely not the right approach in my opinion.
KEVIN: I would agree. Now Jay let me ask you a couple of questions. Obviously one of the big things that I see a lot of people asking about is there's a lot of focus on multi market operations and expansion. Right? You know some franchise systems you know like to think that they pioneered this but if you look at the eXp value proposition because you do deal with in your business and I know you're relationships with a lot of the teams that either are already multi market or that's part of their business plan. How much of a game changer do you think that the two things ,the one the single rainmaker cap nationwide for eXp is and then to the fact that they have the team concept in terms of the capping including the mega mega team program how big a game changer in the industry do you think that is going to be?
JAY: It's super interesting. For us, it's a huge deal I mean because we were independent so we didn't have you know I guess you know if you look at other systems or other franchises that have something similar. I mean there's way more cost associated with trying to you know expand into new markets with that business model then there is at eXp. There is clearly you know a huge advantage as far as making that an affordable opportunity. And it's interesting because I have got on a few conversations that probably my third or fourth weekend where I had an agent in Virginia that wanted to join my team. She had been on some type of an expansion team somebody at Keller Williams. I'm not sure who it was you know she was looking for some lead generation and things of that nature but she wanted to join on a 50/50 split. I had not been thinking about it that way because most of my conversations have been with influencers and things of that nature so I was just looking at you know I've been sharing over and over and over conversation after conversation you know just the business model and I wasn't presenting it from a here come join my team perspective and it kind of hit me is like my goodness. I mean there could literally be you know you could have a thousand agents on your team. I think you know 15 years of my career. Everybody was focused on how do you get to a thousand transactions and I think now that the opportunity for someone to have a thousand agents on their team that wants to control lead gen and bring agents in under a little bit stronger value proposition than just whatever the eXp is offering in order to help them be successful. You know that's a real possibility. It would be something that you know that I've never seen done before that's for sure.
KEVIN: And I think that that is something that inherently, I have some people I'm interviewing about this but is inherently in some of the franchise systems the conflict right. Essentially if you look at a cloud based brokerage like eXp realty your single cap gives you access nationwide because it's a single brokerage not each office is independently owned and operated and franchise system. So the conflict that I see coming down the pike is you can have a national conference like happened recently and announce that you're going to do a virtual cloud based operation. Right? They didn't give a lot of details but now imagine you own the office in Oklahoma City and you're the franchisee and you used to get a cap when the expansion team opens up in your market right. You're going to get some amount of company dollar. Now income is virtual and you're not getting that anymore. I think it's going to be I guess I'll give it a nice pleasant turn but it's going to be very messy for the franchisees in the franchise or to sort through all of that. Silicon Valley approach to this, speed to market is the winner. You know and I think a lot of people are starting to wake up. Most people including a lot of people listening to this don't realize what a big ramp up that eXp is going through. Frankly Jay a big part of it is the momentum that you brought in because if they were running at 300 agents a month in September-October and they hit 988 in January that's a big part of what Gene and I have given the moniker super influence effect. And there's going to be a lot more of that. And for context the number one franchise system in the world netted 908 agents in January. You probably didn't never hear that figure before but I've seen it so with 900 offices they netted 900 agents. eXp did 988 without team leaders with a single nationwide footprint. And so what's ending up happening is what used to occur as they expanded in a franchise system. You know Gene and I did this. You get a bunch of agents excited. They want to join and then they have to wait till the franchise is awarded. They have to wait until the bricks and mortar acquired they have to wait until the office gets a core group and mix application including with the person who gets approved as the franchisee to run it. That takes 12 to 18 months. So flash forward Jake Kinder comes on board in October his phone rings off the hook for the first 30 plus days. Somebody is in San Diego. You know they have 15 agents. Hypothetically they get excited to watch the web an hour they want to join that maybe talk to some of the senior people who are accessible at eXp especially for people that have a substantive business that's a big deal like a list for you. And I know you did talk to Glenn and others before you came over. They come over and it takes 10 days, not 18 months. So for listeners that have been told especially if you work for a franchise system there's no way they can sustain this growth at eXp realty. Here's your wakeup call. It takes as little as a week to 10 days to bring over mega teams. In a franchise system especially if it's an expansion effort and there's a new market center involved is you're talking 12 to 18 months. That's their Achilles heel both for the virtual market center aspect as well as the other aspect we talked about earlier which is the direct conflict. For those out there that are wondering and scratching their head of how did this brokerage go from you know 800 or so agents to 66 hundred at the end of last year to break through 8000. Now as Jay mentioned at the top of this interview close to 10000 that's the clock speed that it's running out. There's no reason I'll put a stake in the ground. I don't what your prediction is but I think that will be at every bit of 22 to 25000 agents at the end of the year. What's your number.
JAY: That was the number that I had been thinking to January. And I want to say I had a conversation with Glenn in December. The thought was maybe 13-14000 at the end of 2018 and then at the end of January I think that number is going up considerably closer 20000. I believe there would be more than 23000. The only question that I have is the onboarding process and it's super scalable what they're doing now. So it would stand to reason that they could continue to scale out that apartment and manage the you know the pace at which we're growing. There are some estate broker things that probably come into play there that need to be dialed in there to get more than 23000 but I would definitely bet my left arm on 20000 unless there's some type of internal reason for us to not grow that fast. I can't imagine not hitting 20000 at the end of this year. I just don't see any way especially with the influencers that I know that are on the new on the transition right now and the ones that have already come on board. It's just got too much momentum to not do that.
KEVIN: Absolutely and my take on it to Jay is the fact that we've hit critical mass. In other words some in the marketplace and this is some of the noise and misinformation is that they can't keep scaling the eXp realty. There's no way they can do this. And there is a demand portion of that which we've been talking about right the super influencers, the influencers the momentum even down on the agent level worry they'll join and then two or three people will join and then they know two or three people and that's that frankly there's more agents joining from that than just the super influencers right. You look at since you've got here you know if you add 2500 agents and you talk about having 300 in your revenue sharing group. It's still growing much faster than even what you're doing. So the demand side is there. If you look at and I've worked for nine startups in Silicon Valley, the stuff that the marketplace doesn't understand is the systems will all be scalable. They're always going to be periods of time when demand outstrips the capacity of the entity. The difference is if I've got to open up bricks and mortar and hire people and stick them in offices and do things physically there's a meter on it as to how fast I can grow. So if you're just talking about building systems that are scalable that are cloud based, the cloud based model beats the bricks and mortar model every time. So Jay if you look at where you are getting most of the interest from obviously it's across the board right independence you get people from the big franchise systems when you look at an agent that's maybe listening to this. You remember they were involved with your association or something else like that. What's the advice you can give them as far as you know due diligence and vetting and the whole purpose of this podcast is to get it out in your words but also to give them a roadmap for vetting. What would you advise them to do? Obviously they listen to this potentially. Now they need to you know dig in and make their own decision on the eXp Realty.
JAY: Do your due diligence. I would say you know talk to agents. One thing I would say not to do is you know don't look at just the agents in your marketplace that are have currently joined eXp and make a decision based on that. There's still a lot of marketplaces where the agents that came on board were super early adopters and maybe they were not doing a lot of transactions or whatever the case may be. I would say get in contact with you know someone that's at a high caliber and talk to them definitely keep listening these podcast. Definitely watch some youtube videos and things of that nature but talk to some agents that are here eXp now and that are doing production and ask them what you know. It's everything it's cracked up to be. I think that's one of the things that you can do that that the easiest and you know see what the truth is out there would be what my advice would be.
KEVIN: Absolutely. That's good advice. Another thing I would say to echo what Jay said... We still have markets at the eXp where there are a look like Texas was three years ago when Gene Frederick first approached me about Texas. I want to say they had less than 25 agents in the entire state of Texas. eXp at this point has 1800 agents, they're adding way over 100 per month. The complexion of it and the difference in the brokerage operation is like night and day. Not only is the brokerage infrastructure in terms of the state broker and all the State Administrative brokerage team and I think it's close to 10 people at this point. Completely different. And that's the scalability as well of the business. That's the only thing that I'm glad you brought it up a run across. More people say well I can't look at the roster in my market and there's only a handful of people and I'm not sure you guys are going to do what you do in my market that you've done in other markets. Well it's just a matter of time in my opinion and that's what you just said Jay which is raise your hand and the other thing I would say as far as vetting is that you should, whoever brought eXp Realty has an opportunity to you. Ask them to get you in touch with some other people from a reference standpoint. The culture of the business is such that even if somebody is a fairly large producer or mega agent or they're in a different market if somebody pings them and says hey I've got this prospect, they're really interested in the eXp. They're a little concerned about their market versus what we've done in other parts of the country. We will absolutely get you connected with somebody. It doesn't matter if they are in our rev share group I would do it for Jay. Jay would do it for me. Anybody would do it. We can get you in touch especially if you're a larger independent brokerage and you know you're thinking this is strategic for me. I've got 30 to 50 agents, I've got 100 agents. We had one in the southeastern United States that approached us with 350 agents and five offices. If you're out there and this is strategic, you're listening to these podcasts episodes and you need help. There's plenty of help it's the culture of the business that's in our DNA. And I see you doing it all day long Jay. I mean you raise your hand and say look let me help you Gene and I do the same thing. We don't care and Gene frankly is the evangelist and the ambassador for eXp, he's out there running regional trainings and events all over the country and every once in awhile he'll say to me he goes I think they're in my downline. I think they're in my revenue share group but he doesn't really care. Most of us don't care. We don't care anymore. I know you don't care either.
JAY: The culture is just incredible and you think OK well it's not you know there's no brick and mortar attack and you really have culture. This is probably the most culture rich organization I've ever been apart of there really is... It's just engineered into the DNA. When you come on board the eXp to help one another and you know there's not this oh well you're not my downline that's not at all the feel which is something I didn't necessarily expect but I've been really pleased to see that it really is truly you know a lot of givers in this company that are wanting to help one another grow and are willing to help anybody in the organization no matter where they're at. And that starts at the very top with leadership. Now all the way down to you know any agent in the company that's very special to be you know to be able to kind of see that and experience it. It's very rare I would say.
KEVIN: Great. Well Jay this is another example of you giving in terms of coming on the podcast I appreciate it. Before we let you go any other final thoughts and then I'm going to have you give out your contact information in case I wants to reach out to you.
JAY: No I don't have any final thoughts. I mean if you've been thinking about it you know take action. I think this is you know one of the better opportunities that I've seen since I've been in real estate and certainly think that you're going to be better off here than not being here.
KEVIN: Fantastic. Jay if somebody wants to reach you and connect with you how would they find you either on social media or on the web.
JAY: You could probably just Google me that's probably an easy way to find me but if you want to e-mail me you can shoot me an email it's my name. Jay@Jaykinder.com.
KEVIN: Fantastic thanks for coming on the show.
JAY: You got it thank you.